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Thread: Gun Culture

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy1 View Post
    For the folks who are just aching to call "Bullshit" on that one, allow me to explain...


    My Dad is a private store owner... an Entrepreneur. He has all of the necessary licenses, permits, "get out of jail free" cards, and whatever else is needed to get practically any hand-held firearm into his store, legally. It's not my business... it's not my dream... it's my Dad's... so I don't know all of the intricate details... I just know that it works, and it's 100% legal.

    Now... Despite the fact that 99.9% of everything that you see on TV and in the movies is Total Bullshit... there is Definitely one thing that is Not Bullshit...

    That is... Every law enforcement agency in the USA is in a continuous Dick-Measuring contest with every Other law enforcement agency in the USA. "This is MY jurisdiction, that is YOUR jurisdiction", etc. and so on and so forth.

    So... Does a small local police department or a Sheriff's department have the authority to purchase their own firearms and have them delivered directly to them? In most cases, NO. That requires FEDERAL permission, which they usually don't have. Enter the private gun dealer...

    The private gun dealer DOES have permission to order, purchase, and have those firearms delivered to his premises. Once they have been delivered to the private gun dealer... Those firearms are located WITHIN THE JURISDICTION of the law enforcement agency that wants them, and they can do pretty much whatever they want to do... within their own jurisdiction.
    Actually that's not quite right.

    Federally, any law enforcement agency a local or state level can purchase so-called Class III (or Title II) National Firearms Act-defined firearms (machine guns, short barreled - less than 16" - rifles, short barreled - less than 18" - shotguns or 'any other weapon" - like the Sebu 'Super Shorty' stake out shotgun - which is under 26" overall length and purpose built - not made from an existing shotgun so its an AOW) directly on a "Form 5" (BATFE form 5320.5) - which is a non-taxed transfer to a government agency. These definitions are in 18 USC 922.

    Technically they can buy "Destructive Devices" too (like grenades). That would be hard to justify other than flash bangs - but since BATFE has decided that smoke grenades are DDS, may be not.

    Details are found in the BATFE's NFA Handbook. This assumes that the government the law enforcement agency is subordinate to allows it to (i.e, the city allows its PD to do so).

    The LE agency orders the NFA firearm on agency letter head. The manufacturer initiates a 5320.5 and once BATFE NFA Branch approves it, the NFA firearm is shipped to the LE agency.

    That's the process under Federal law. All the states allow government agencies to posses NFA firearms - and in some cases, some agencies have allowed individual officers to purchase NFA firearms "on letterhead" (technically it belongs to the agency even if the officer used his own money - a couple of Illinois State Troopers skated on state gun charges where they had purchased NFA firearms in violation of Illinois state law because the judge decided that the agency approved the purchase (even though it didn't).

    Now some jurisdictions might require local purchase or competative bids or whatever, but under Federal law, local and state LE agencies can buy direct.

    This is also true of 'normal' (or Title I in legal speak) firearms.

    I know a bit about this.
    Last edited by MM54; 05-24-2016 at 03:25 PM.

  2. #12
    Moderator Speedy1's Avatar
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    I'm just considering this topic/thread to be an "old war stories" thread. I just started it because the board has been kind of boring lately, and quite frankly... I am bored, as well. If you're not interested in the rambling musings of some bored, drunk, old fart... then just click away...

    However... I am not a liar. All of these stories are true...


    So... In the early days of Dad's shop... This guy came in to look at some handguns. He looked at 3 or 4, then said, "I want this one." I said, "Sold... To the Man in the Yellow T-Shirt!" and ran to grab the paperwork. As I walked back onto the sales floor, my Dad said, "Don't forget the 3310. He bought a handgun here 3 days ago." I stopped dead in my tracks and asked Dad, "The 33 whosit whaten? For Why?" Dad said, "If we sell a person more than one handgun within 5 business days, we have to fill out a 3310." I said, "Well, you learn something new every day. Give me one." He gave me a form, and I trundled off to sell the gun to the guy.

    As we were doing the paperwork, I said, "Hang on a second... I gotta fill out this other form here because you bought 2 handguns from us within 5 days." He said, "Fine. Whatever." After he left, my Dad told me, "You're not supposed to Tell Him that you're filling out the form!" "Then why didn't you wait to tell me about it until after he left?" "Oh... Yeah... That would have been a better idea, now that I think of it."

    Later, after the shop was closed, I told Dad, "You know... If that form is required, then we need a way to ensure that it's filled out when it's required. We need a handgun tracking system. And also... Doesn't that seem a little unfair, to report on multiple handgun sales, without telling the guy about it? What did he do that's illegal?" "I don't know... ask the BATF the next time that they're here."

    Well, folks... Never tee up the golf ball unless you expect me to take a swing at it...

    The next time the BATF showed up at the shop, I asked the guy, "Hey! I got a question for ya!" I could see my Dad muttering under his breath, "Oh, my dear lord... and I'm the guy that put the idea in his head..."

    "Yeah? What's your question?"

    "What's wrong with purchasing more than one handgun within 5 business days?"

    "Nothing."

    "Then why do you have that form?"

    "Just to track those purchases."

    "But you don't track multiple long gun purchases?"

    "No."

    "Not even if someone comes in and buys... like... 10 AR-15s."

    "Well... that would be suspicious."

    "But there's no form for it, and no requirement to report it?"

    "Well... No..."

    "But a guy who comes in with his girlfriend or wife to buy matching handguns so that they can go shooting together, that requires a form?"

    "Well, why doesn't the guy buy one and his wife buy one?"

    "Maybe he's buying it as a gift or something."

    "I think you're missing the point of the form."

    "No... I think you're missing MY point."

  3. #13
    Moderator Speedy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MM54 View Post
    This is also true of 'normal' (or Title I in legal speak) firearms.

    I know a bit about this.

    I am sure that you know more about the letter of the law than I do. As I said earlier, this is my father's gig, not mine. I do know, however, that he always receives the firearms for the local law enforcement agencies, and then they pick up the firearms from his shop. I have personally logged out over 30 handguns at once to a local law enforcement agency. Is there some misinterpretation of the law which is occurring here? I don't know. They order from us, we order from the distributor or manufacturer, we receive the weapons, and the law enforcement rep picks up the stuff at our shop. That's the way that it has always been done. Maybe it's wrong? Maybe it's overkill?

    Maybe it's just easier to do it with my Dad, since he already has all of the permits? With all of that "Letterhead" mumbo-jumbo and getting the whole thing approved by a branch office, that's kind of the way that I'm leaning.
    Last edited by Speedy1; 05-24-2016 at 03:58 PM.

  4. #14
    Moderator Speedy1's Avatar
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    My "Straw Purchase" incident, which my Dad and 2 other guys who were present laugh about until this very day...


    I was waiting on this guy, and he was looking at handguns. It came up during the sales process that he was purchasing the gun as a gift for his girlfriend. I went through the whole procedure of discussing with him his girlfriend's experience and familiarity with guns. I even suggested (as I usually do) that it would be best for his girlfriend to come into the store with him and find the gun with which she felt the most comfortable. "Oh, No! That would spoil the surprise!" Of course, at this point, I'm thinking, "Oh, what could it be? Earrings? A new dress? Why, No! It's a Gun!" But the guy finally decides which gun he wants to buy for her, and I get the paperwork. Everything is all fine and dandy, until he looks at the form...

    "Well... I am buying the gun for my girlfriend." I answered, "That's OK. You are permitted to purchase the gun as a gift. As long as that person is not ineligible to purchase that gun, and as long as you are not intentionally purchasing the gun so that someone else doesn't have to come into the store and purchase the gun, it's legal. Here... Read the explanation of the rule, right here. It's called a 'Straw Purchase.' What the law says is that you can't buy a gun for someone who can't legally purchase the gun themselves. It's right here. It's OK to purchase the gun as a gift for your girlfriend, as long as she's not a convicted felon or something like that."

    "Well, How would I know that?"

    "Excuse Me the what the hell did you just say?"

    "How do I know that my girlfriend isn't a convicted felon?"

    "And... Now... I can't sell you the gun."

    "No... I just meant hypothetically."

    "And... Hypothetically... There's no way that I'm selling you this gun."

    "No. I just want to buy it for myself."

    "Right... Goodbye!"

  5. #15
    Moderator Speedy1's Avatar
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    If any of the mongers on the board are still reading this crazy-ass thread... they're probably thinking, "The very LEAST that Speedy1 could do is throw in a good story about Chicas!" Well... I aim to please...

    I was working in the shop one day, and one of our best employees... let's call him "Bob", was working at about the middle of the long side of our large, main L-shaped counter, rearranging some stock, or some other mundane shit like that. My Dad was at the very end of the short side of the "L", showing some jewelry to a customer... a young lady in her early 20s. Kick yourself in the ass if you don't see where this is going...

    I'm standing... quite bored... near the checkout station, which is right at the "corner" of the "L."

    Bob looks at me and says, "Hey... Speedy1... You need to come look at these 10/22s." 10/22 is a model of rifle sold by Ruger. It's an inexpensive .22LR rifle... nothing epic. I look up... they're all perfectly in line... and say, "They look fine. Great job." Bob says, "No. You REALLY need to come look at these 10/22s." Exasperated, I said, "Bob! I can see them from here! They look great! You're awesome!" Bob says, "Speedy1... You are REALLY not getting me. You REALLY need to come over here and check out these 10/22s!"

    "Fine, Bob! Whatever!"

    I walk over, and when I stop and stare at the rifle display, Bob grabs my head with both hands, and twists it around so that I am staring straight at the jewelry case where my Dad is showing the only customer in the store some rings. She is bent over at the waist, checking out the rings on the very bottom shelf of the jewelry case, with her short-shorts riding so far up her ass and into her crotch that I seriously doubt the amount of visible fabric would have covered a mouse. I said, "Oh... my dear lord in heaven... we thank thee for the bountiful blessings which you have given to us, and we apologize for the sins which we now commit." Bob said, "Amen, Brother!" My Dad was giving both of us that "Knock it off or I'm gonna lose it over here!" look.

    From that day forward, "Check out these 10/22s" has been the catchphrase in my Dad's shop for 'Hotness On Deck!'

  6. #16
    Moderator Speedy1's Avatar
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    Pawnbrokering and Gun Dealing are a common mix in the USA. First of all... Forget everything that you've seen on "Pawn Stars." That's not pawnbrokering... that's trading in antiques, rarities and other unusually valuable goods. True pawnbrokering is an entirely different, and much more mundane and uninteresting thing.

    One of the most commonly pawned items, for whatever reason, is firearms. One good thing about firearms is that they tend to hold their value extremely well. Most firearms actually appreciate in value, given enough time, unless they are truly just junk. A used gun in good shape almost always sells for at least 85% of the value of a new gun, even if the used gun is several years old. Gun design doesn't change much over time, which adds to the value retention. Take the "Desert Eagle" as a prime example. That gun has appeared, practically unchanged, in movies for over 25 years. Even today, when people see that gun in a movie, they think, "Wow! That is an Awesome-Looking Gun!" Han Solo used a WW-II era German semi-automatic pistol, and everybody thought that that was super-cool, too. The Browning .50 caliber is still the mainstay of armed forces all over the world, and it's almost 85 years old, in its current iteration. The cartridge its fires is called the .50 BMG, which colloquially stands for "Big Mother-F***ing Gun", although that's not what BMG actually stands for, of course.

    Dad has only taken one .50 caliber rifle in pawn, and it involved about 20 minutes worth of head-scratching and a phone call to the local ATF office.

    I took an AR-15 in pawn once, only to have my Dad look at it later and say, "This is an NFA rifle. We GOTTA call BATF! Like... Right Now!" I said, "Huh? What?" Turns out it wasn't Exactly an AR-15. I wasn't in trouble, but the shop would have been in trouble if we had let the guy pick it back up.

    I took a black powder rifle in pawn once. I almost let the guy walk because he wanted $50 and I only wanted to give him $40. I finally caved because it did look nice and I felt like the guy would pick it back up. Two days later, Dad walks up to me with the gun in his hands... "Did YOU take this in pawn?" I thought I had seriously screwed up, so I barely squeaked out a "yeah... I guess..." Dad asked, "Did you recognize the guy or get his phone number?" I answered, "No", and the guy didn't write in his phone number on the pawn form (it's optional). Dad said, "I'm tagging this. Don't let this guy pick up this rifle unless I am here, so that I can speak to him... personally."

    Turns out the damned thing was worth over $2000... a genuine civil war relic. Dad told the guy what he had found and paid the guy $1200 for it.


    WAY back when... My brother was working in the shop, and loaned a guy $30 on a Sony Playstation. Dad saw it in the back of the store and asked, "What is THAT?" My brother said, "It's a Playstation, Dad! You play video games on your TV at home!" Dad said, "Atari already tried that... Nice WASTE of $30! That'll NEVER Sell!"

    I loaned a guy $20 on a DVD player. Dad asked me, "What is THAT?" I said, "It' a DVD player, Dad. You watch movies on it, and it has a better quality and a longer life-span than VCRs." "Can you record on it, too?" "Well... No. It doesn't record. It just plays movies." "Nice waste of $20!"

    I loaned a guy $100 on a notebook computer once. Dad said, "What's that?" I answered, "It's a computer... except that it's portable and runs on a battery, so that you can take it with you wherever you go." "Who in HELL is going to want to carry a computer around with them? Next, you'll be telling me that people want to carry a portable telephone around with them, too!"

  7. #17
    Lifetime Member tommo55's Avatar
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    The proof of your point about the "the Gansta" style shooting is in Chicago where more often innocent bystanders get hurt or murdered. If I was mayor I would make all gangbangers take target practice so they would hit their intended targets- each other.

  8. #18
    Moderator Speedy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommo55 View Post
    The proof of your point about the "the Gansta" style shooting is in Chicago where more often innocent bystanders get hurt or murdered. If I was mayor I would make all gangbangers take target practice so they would hit their intended targets- each other.

    Interesting argument. I would support you 100%, but I don't know how you could make it fly. A new regulation that requires all Gang Members to to take a shooting class? Fully paid for by the government? I'm behind you 100%! Do you think the public and the government would ever buy off on it?

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